Boeby is so right about the White pattern being easier than most house shots. Can't even imagine how easy the Red must be.

It is up to each individual to decide what they want bowling to be to them. This is what my long winded post was getting at. That and the fact that the conditions we had this year were challenging, but not impossible and that the "regular" bowler and the league actually did improve significantly from the year past. It doesn't seem like it when you look at the raw average because everyone is concerned with the number, not what it represents. I used the converted numbers, because that is the reality and if those averages showed up on the sheet, we may not even be having this discussion.

Someone above mentioned the league identity. Frank brings this up each year at the captains meeting and many don't see the reason for needing to know. If the league identity is "a bunch of guys getting together to draft teams and have a good time bowling on the house shot" then so be it. If the league identity is "a premier league based on drafted teams competing on challenging conditions" then so be it. Right now the league identity is "a draft league trying something different each season in an attempt to make everyone happy". Not going to happen!! Decide what the league is to be first and then let the bowlers decide if they want to be involved. If it's sport, some bowlers won't play. If it's the house shot, some bowlers won't play. We can vote on conditions all we want and there are still those who won't play. Until there is a league identity, we are just going to continue to debate the whole thing and accomplish nothing.

Danny -- I can't help it if you're a slow reader

The other thing we must consider or at least include in the discussion is Bowlero.

Do we ever stop to think what we are asking of the center when we want conditions other than what the house puts out for the other leagues?

I am not saying they mind, just we should understand what it takes to do what we want.

If we were to do something like the Red, White, and Blue conditions, I would expect Bowlero may be able to use those for all their leagues thus not needing to make adjustments to the machine as often.

All good points from everyone and exactly what should take place. We will not please everyone but at least everyone should know the league cares...

The league imo does not need to go to the red white and blue patterns. They are too easy. All we need to do is ad some loads to each pattern that we had this year (or kegel has challenge patterns that are close to the same) to add a little "help". Sounds kind of cheesey but it is true. You then will have a short, medium and long pattern but a chance to actually shoot a number or two somewhere. BUT, you do not get sport credit. How important is it to be sport certified? I don't know......

I use to use sport patterns for the 616 early on and the turnout got lower and lower. Once I softened them up a little (but not too much!) the turnout got really really good. What bowlers say they want and what they actually want can be different. I think they need a variety to help remind them just how silly scratch bowling is on wide open conditions. And just how much work it is on flatter conditions.

That is what I know from my experience.

The Draft League has made me a lot better of a bowler but I had to also go out and practice, acquire an arsenal of bowling balls and develop my mental game. I had to become a student of the game to enjoy it.

I'm sorry if I have let Rob and anyone else down. It is time for me to make changes for myself and my family. I stretch myself too thin!!!

Thanks,
Marty

Well Mitch asked the league bowlers last night what they wanted for a shot next year so it will be interesting to see the results.

I would like to say though, IMO the question was posed incorrectly. The question was what shot do you want next year and if your coming back. A better question would be is there a shot that would cause you not to come back. It would be interesting to see how many bowlers the league will lose given each pattern. I am one that will not come back on a Sport or Challenge Shot. I am sure we have people that will not come back on a house shot. So which one is less? The vast majority probably said if they are either coming back or not coming back regardless of pattern.

Additionally, what pattern is most attractive to those not currently in the league as those people will be needed to round out the draft board if the league plans on staying at 16 teams.

I applaud Mitch for taking the initiative last night in doing the poll but even those answers will not tell the whole story. In my opinion, some bowlers will not be honest in a poll where their choices are shown/seen by other bowlers and/or tied to their name. If a discreet poll was done, it might tell the whole story.

I hope most bowlers want to come back because of the competition but if we really want to see what bowlers want as far as a shot, it should be a blind ballot with no names asigned to each vote.

DITTO...

I too applaud Mitch for trying to get feedback but too think it could have been done a different way. Had I known he was intending on doing it this way maybe we could have discussed it and thought of another way.

I don't know how many people said what they thought others around wanted to hear or see on the form instead of what they truly felt.

Another good point was made by Jason, the league will always need fresh bowlers as some will not come back for other reasons than condition.

I am not affraid to share what I voted for. I said I was coming back and the shot did not matter. Well, I could have lied though. If we bowl the whole season on what we had the first round, I will NOT come back

I can't help but to reflect on the baker doubles tournament Kim had a few weeks ago. The shot was pretty much a house shot. I saw local house bowlers bowling and competing. In fact, they finished in cashing positions. I strongly believe this will bring them back again. Wonder what would happen if the condition was one of Weds nights conditions? Who knows, maybe the same. I just know the regular house bowlers appeared to have a good time.

Regular house bowlers means Non-scratch league bowlers.

Hey guys, if anybody wants to survey members and do it anonymously, I have access to basic survey design/results on Survey Monkey. I'd be more than happy to help you craft questions and send the responses to whomever. It's really pretty easy, and it's one thing that I can do to help. I hate to see a league of this caliber fail, but I do appreciate all the discussion.

I for one have opted to bowl a 9:45 pm doubles league so that I am on a Challenge Shot - late nights are not my thing, but it's been a good experience - must admit the shots are not as long or as difficult as what we faced last year when I was in Tacoma, but nonetheless, I have to execute in order to score.

At any rate, if league leadership wants a survey, just let me know. Several of you know how to reach me offline anyway. Good luck I hope the league stays strong!

Karen

OK, time to throw in a lefty perspective (such as it is)

I remember the last time we had an all-Bowlero house shot. I averaged 232, using my Blue Dot for most of the games. Tommy and I were almost always 1-2 during the house shot era. The rest of the league averaged 220, with only 3 or 4 people finishing under 200. I seem to remember the draft pool being smaller the following year because the "190" bowlers felt they couldn't compete or get drafted.

When we went modified house, we were still at or near the top, while the rest of the lefties struggled. The same occured on the PBA/Kegel shots in subsequent years, although last year I struggled on 2 of the shots and finished 6th.

I found it interesting that after last year's tough Kegel shots, the draft pool increased dramatically enough to add 4 teams to the league, from 12 to 16.

I'll throw in my kudos to Marty for marketing this league, and the league will miss him.

As for what shot I won't return to, I have reservations about going back to the Bowlero house shot, but I'll probably return. The red, white, and blue shots sound interesting, but I would like to see how it will be handled (One shot per third? Which one first?). I would prefer the Kegel shots again, as it helps me prepare for Nationals (1900+ all-events the last 3 years; 3 years of sport shots--coincidence?).

If we still want to be known as the Premier Scratch league, we need to attract the premier scratch bowlers. We need to find a happy medium to the easy house shot vs. the tough sport shots, so people won't be scared to join us.

I've only subbed in this league this year, and I think it was the quarter in which only Frank bowled decent game to game, week to week. I bowled ok, a little less than Ok, worse than that (sorry Danny), and then back to not too bad, but on the next quarter's shot. I would always prefer to practice bowling on the easy and then when the lights come on, make them tough. I would rather see missing by a little and confused as to how bad it missed on the end, rather than miss by a lot and confused as to how it still struck. I am pretty sure I will be bowling one of the two draft leagues next year, now that the wrong foot experiment is going better than I could have hoped............and the reason I am switching, I am tired of bowling like crap and averaging 220+ I would rather bowl well and average 205........and on the rare nights I shoot 900 when the others struggle for 800, I can feel like I accomplished something........to me that is much more rewarding than shooting 950 and beating my opponent by 25 for the night because I carried one more 10 pin.